cvfd1399 0 #1 August 2, 2004 I was thinking today about your canopy landing over you, or your rig sinking you if you landed in water. It would be a lifesaver to have a "spare-air"(see site) attached to your rig. They are fairly small, have good secure ways to hold them, and last about 5 minutes or more if you are above 30 feet. We use them for underwater search and rescue incase we need to bail out of the supplied air mask and ascend to the surface. www.spareair.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 August 2, 2004 Better idea is to follow your water training, be prepared before you hit the water and get out of the rig asap. In water training you have a canopy thrown over you and you learn to follow a seam to the edge and swim away from the rig.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #3 August 2, 2004 the time spent fumbling with the air canister could be better spent getting out of the rig... my $0.02NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #4 August 2, 2004 Well if that is the case then why do we wear flotation devices? It only takes 3 seconds or less to slide it out of the holster and start breathing from it. I really want to see the people that say find the seam and swim out from under it really do it every time when there is saltwater in your eyes, possibly an injury, lines tangled around you , and for some reason your rig is still on you. I am talking a safety measure here not as an excuse to not do the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #5 August 2, 2004 Ever watched fear factor when they submerge the contestants in a tank and see who can hold their breath the longest? I watched a episode where out of the 5 that did the stunt only one held their breath for over 10 seconds. They just freaked out at the situation, dropped the signal device and was rescued by the safety divers. One of them was a professional swimmer. In a normal situation, they could have held their breath for at least a minute in a bathtub, but the fear and excitement got to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #6 August 2, 2004 QuoteWell if that is the case then why do we wear flotation devices? Because you may be in the water for a while, fully clothed. QuoteI am talking a safety measure here not as an excuse to not do the right thing. Along with a AAD on the main, a second on on the reserve, shoes with 4 inch soles, padded jumpsuits, a neck brace, mouth piece. I'm sure I'm still not as safe as possible....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #7 August 2, 2004 Remember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. I was able to get out in about 3 seconds flat in my water trainging tests. Its easy to do once you practice it a few times.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #8 August 2, 2004 When we did "drownproofing" every year in the Army, I had no problem stripping off my equipment, BDU top, and then pants while treading/floating/sinking in the water... The canister just seems to me to be: a. another thing that can malfunction b. another thing that can snag a line and cause a malfunction c. more dead weight If you are worried about water landings, why not work on your swimming skills or canopy skills to help mitigate risk. After all, that is all anyone can ever really do... just REDUCE risk, not eliminate it.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #9 August 2, 2004 QuoteRemember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. Quote I highly doubt this. Scuba tanks are made of high strength aluminum that are made to withstand high pressures. This mini tank is probably rated to 2000-3000 psi, where as the atmosphere at sea level is only 14.7 psi. The pressure difference at 14K' is hardly anything comparibly. The only thing that could cause potential problems is fatigue, but we are talking about millions of cycles for that. None the less, I agree that just following your water training is your best bet. Either this thing would be hard to get to and take longer than just swimming out, or it would be readily accessible and be problematic during freefall. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #10 August 2, 2004 QuoteEither this thing would be hard to get to and take longer than just swimming out, or it would be readily accessible and be problematic during freefall. And something very hard, up against your body, if you land on land (something I do often) and don't land softly (something I do periodically). -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #11 August 2, 2004 QuoteAfter all, that is all anyone can ever really do... just REDUCE risk, not eliminate it. In most cases this is true. In the case of a water landing though, I think we can eliminate the risk. Don't jump near water. Problem solved. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #12 August 2, 2004 QuoteEver watched fear factor when they submerge the contestants in a tank and see who can hold their breath the longest? I watched a episode where out of the 5 that did the stunt only one held their breath for over 10 seconds. They just freaked out at the situation, dropped the signal device and was rescued by the safety divers. One of them was a professional swimmer. In a normal situation, they could have held their breath for at least a minute in a bathtub, but the fear and excitement got to them. That's why there's a water training requirement for your B license. They want to have you do it once in a swimming pool so you wont be as likely to freak out when it happens for real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #13 August 2, 2004 QuoteRemember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. .The change in outside air pressure, less than 15 psi from sea level to outer space, is negligible compared the air pressure inside that bottle. It's not a problem. As far as a safety device, okay, but I'd rather have a floation device than a bottle of air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #14 August 2, 2004 Nice avatar Matt. I know exactly where that sign is and thought it funny as hell when I saw it The crew of the aircraft that usually flys us carry those bailout bottles on their survival vests but thats for getting out of a submerged aircraft. As small as they are, they are still too big to be carting around attached to ones rig IMO."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #15 August 2, 2004 lol, thanks... I just found the pic today when I was bored at work. I was looking for the one of the cow falling off the cliff, but had no luck. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #16 August 2, 2004 Cool, this is all the answers I was wanting to learn from thanks. I was also wondering on this same line. Every time I see pictures of people water training it is in a 4ft pool where you can stand up. Shouldn't it be in water that is deeper where you have to swim instead of walk under the canopy. Also what about a reserve ride where once you land in the water you cannot chop the canopy from above you. What about deep moving water, they make water parachutes that act as an anchor(pic1,2,3). If you are in moving water and you canopy inflates, it will drag you if you are unable to get it off you. Since it is not a round water anchor like this in the picture. If it is pointed nose down could it dive underwater instead of just inflate and pull you in the direction of the current?. (last Pic). I speak from a person who has dove in rivers before where you had to keep a head low angle against the flow to keep your body pushed against the bottom of the river and hands dug into the bottom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #17 August 2, 2004 When you enter the water all the straps are as far out as you can get them, the chest strap is undone and as soon as you come to a stop in the water you are pushing out of the container and swimming up current if there is one. If you try and land into the wind the canopy will fall behind you so you don't have anything over your head. You never try and chop the main before you hit the water there have been fatilities from doing it too high. Having a reserve still in the container will help keep you afloat with the air in the reserve packjob for a minute or two also.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #18 August 2, 2004 QuoteRemember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. There's a 14.7 PSI difference between sea level and space. Taking a SCUBA bottle up in a plane is going to change the forces exerted on it by less than 1%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #19 August 2, 2004 Having landed a 370 sq ft main and reserve into an actual river with a decent current I can tell you that it will eventually start to pull you once it has gotten completely wet. While it is still on the surface and has remnants of air in it, it will stay that way until the fabric starts to get wet and pulls the rest under until you have a blob of wet shit. It will at some point get picked up by the current and start pulling you if your not already out of the harness. You would be surprised how buoyant a rig is, even the really big ones. The key is not to panic,even if the canopy lands on you or a few lines snag on you. The more you thrash around, the worse you make it, so you might as well stay calm and focus on the task at hand."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pdj6p 0 #20 August 2, 2004 aside from anything else the cost of those spare air bottles are about $300 american. Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #21 August 3, 2004 You do water training??? In the UK we get a brief if the DZ is near any water, but it generally consists of "there's water over there... don't fly near it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #22 August 3, 2004 The Spare Death isn't even a good idea for divers, let alone jumpers. It's a scuba tank for Ken and Barbie. A solution to problems that could be better solved other ways, without worrying about having this very solid cylinder to smash your body into, plus the small chance of it exploding. Its purpose was to help helicopter pilots escape - probably is ok for that purpose. Even with a container that had tight legs straps, I had no problem jumping into deep pool water, pushing the shoulder straps off, then pulling my legs out and swimming away from the landing spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #23 August 3, 2004 QuoteThe Spare Death Tell me more about your experiences with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites usskydiver 0 #24 August 3, 2004 I have used a "Spare Air" a lot when doing over water flights in MH-53's from Italy to Bosnia and back and again from Sierre Leone to Monrivia, Liberia and back. I believe in them for flying operations but not for jumping. My 1,000th was a night water freefall off the coast of Italy from a C-130, no helmet, no altimeter (left it in the A/C after confirming we were at 3,500' AWL). For intentional water jumps the single best thing you can wear IMO is a wet suit. You have to be a pretty dense (body density) individual to be negatively bouyant in rubber. As far as inadvertant water landings I'm definitely going to lose the weight belt first. Tim T. Team Paraclete (edited for spelling) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #25 August 3, 2004 QuoteYou do water training??? In the UK we get a brief if the DZ is near any water, but it generally consists of "there's water over there... don't fly near it." In the US we have A, B, C and D licenses. A is the initial license and B through D are the more advanced ones. To get a B or higher you need to do water training. Basically they put a rig on you, you undo the chest strap and loosen the leg straps(like you would in flight before hitting water) then jump in a swiming pool. They then throw a canopy over your head while you're under water. I did it a week or so ago and I thought it was a pretty good experience. I was a little nervous doing it, but was suprised how easy it was to get out from the rig. Though undoing the wet chest strap(the rig was soaked by the time I got it) before jumping into the pool was a pain. I don't think I'd want to have to deal with that under water, but I know I won't freak if even that happens since I have a feel for the experience now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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FrogNog 1 #10 August 2, 2004 QuoteEither this thing would be hard to get to and take longer than just swimming out, or it would be readily accessible and be problematic during freefall. And something very hard, up against your body, if you land on land (something I do often) and don't land softly (something I do periodically). -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 August 2, 2004 QuoteAfter all, that is all anyone can ever really do... just REDUCE risk, not eliminate it. In most cases this is true. In the case of a water landing though, I think we can eliminate the risk. Don't jump near water. Problem solved. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #12 August 2, 2004 QuoteEver watched fear factor when they submerge the contestants in a tank and see who can hold their breath the longest? I watched a episode where out of the 5 that did the stunt only one held their breath for over 10 seconds. They just freaked out at the situation, dropped the signal device and was rescued by the safety divers. One of them was a professional swimmer. In a normal situation, they could have held their breath for at least a minute in a bathtub, but the fear and excitement got to them. That's why there's a water training requirement for your B license. They want to have you do it once in a swimming pool so you wont be as likely to freak out when it happens for real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #13 August 2, 2004 QuoteRemember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. .The change in outside air pressure, less than 15 psi from sea level to outer space, is negligible compared the air pressure inside that bottle. It's not a problem. As far as a safety device, okay, but I'd rather have a floation device than a bottle of air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #14 August 2, 2004 Nice avatar Matt. I know exactly where that sign is and thought it funny as hell when I saw it The crew of the aircraft that usually flys us carry those bailout bottles on their survival vests but thats for getting out of a submerged aircraft. As small as they are, they are still too big to be carting around attached to ones rig IMO."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #15 August 2, 2004 lol, thanks... I just found the pic today when I was bored at work. I was looking for the one of the cow falling off the cliff, but had no luck. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #16 August 2, 2004 Cool, this is all the answers I was wanting to learn from thanks. I was also wondering on this same line. Every time I see pictures of people water training it is in a 4ft pool where you can stand up. Shouldn't it be in water that is deeper where you have to swim instead of walk under the canopy. Also what about a reserve ride where once you land in the water you cannot chop the canopy from above you. What about deep moving water, they make water parachutes that act as an anchor(pic1,2,3). If you are in moving water and you canopy inflates, it will drag you if you are unable to get it off you. Since it is not a round water anchor like this in the picture. If it is pointed nose down could it dive underwater instead of just inflate and pull you in the direction of the current?. (last Pic). I speak from a person who has dove in rivers before where you had to keep a head low angle against the flow to keep your body pushed against the bottom of the river and hands dug into the bottom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #17 August 2, 2004 When you enter the water all the straps are as far out as you can get them, the chest strap is undone and as soon as you come to a stop in the water you are pushing out of the container and swimming up current if there is one. If you try and land into the wind the canopy will fall behind you so you don't have anything over your head. You never try and chop the main before you hit the water there have been fatilities from doing it too high. Having a reserve still in the container will help keep you afloat with the air in the reserve packjob for a minute or two also.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #18 August 2, 2004 QuoteRemember you are talking about a pressurized device, taking it to high altitude is'nt the healthist thing to do. The bottle is likely to turn into shrapnel due to all the pressure changes and forces exerted on the bottle after a lot of jumps I'd think. There's a 14.7 PSI difference between sea level and space. Taking a SCUBA bottle up in a plane is going to change the forces exerted on it by less than 1%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #19 August 2, 2004 Having landed a 370 sq ft main and reserve into an actual river with a decent current I can tell you that it will eventually start to pull you once it has gotten completely wet. While it is still on the surface and has remnants of air in it, it will stay that way until the fabric starts to get wet and pulls the rest under until you have a blob of wet shit. It will at some point get picked up by the current and start pulling you if your not already out of the harness. You would be surprised how buoyant a rig is, even the really big ones. The key is not to panic,even if the canopy lands on you or a few lines snag on you. The more you thrash around, the worse you make it, so you might as well stay calm and focus on the task at hand."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pdj6p 0 #20 August 2, 2004 aside from anything else the cost of those spare air bottles are about $300 american. Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #21 August 3, 2004 You do water training??? In the UK we get a brief if the DZ is near any water, but it generally consists of "there's water over there... don't fly near it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #22 August 3, 2004 The Spare Death isn't even a good idea for divers, let alone jumpers. It's a scuba tank for Ken and Barbie. A solution to problems that could be better solved other ways, without worrying about having this very solid cylinder to smash your body into, plus the small chance of it exploding. Its purpose was to help helicopter pilots escape - probably is ok for that purpose. Even with a container that had tight legs straps, I had no problem jumping into deep pool water, pushing the shoulder straps off, then pulling my legs out and swimming away from the landing spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #23 August 3, 2004 QuoteThe Spare Death Tell me more about your experiences with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #24 August 3, 2004 I have used a "Spare Air" a lot when doing over water flights in MH-53's from Italy to Bosnia and back and again from Sierre Leone to Monrivia, Liberia and back. I believe in them for flying operations but not for jumping. My 1,000th was a night water freefall off the coast of Italy from a C-130, no helmet, no altimeter (left it in the A/C after confirming we were at 3,500' AWL). For intentional water jumps the single best thing you can wear IMO is a wet suit. You have to be a pretty dense (body density) individual to be negatively bouyant in rubber. As far as inadvertant water landings I'm definitely going to lose the weight belt first. Tim T. Team Paraclete (edited for spelling) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #25 August 3, 2004 QuoteYou do water training??? In the UK we get a brief if the DZ is near any water, but it generally consists of "there's water over there... don't fly near it." In the US we have A, B, C and D licenses. A is the initial license and B through D are the more advanced ones. To get a B or higher you need to do water training. Basically they put a rig on you, you undo the chest strap and loosen the leg straps(like you would in flight before hitting water) then jump in a swiming pool. They then throw a canopy over your head while you're under water. I did it a week or so ago and I thought it was a pretty good experience. I was a little nervous doing it, but was suprised how easy it was to get out from the rig. Though undoing the wet chest strap(the rig was soaked by the time I got it) before jumping into the pool was a pain. I don't think I'd want to have to deal with that under water, but I know I won't freak if even that happens since I have a feel for the experience now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
