micro 0 #1 December 31, 2005 Ok... serious question time... I'm trying to put a business proposal together and want some "real world" information... Would skydivers pay to regularly jump out of a turbine caribou (De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou, retrofitted w/ turbines in place of the old R-2000 radials)? For those who don't know, it's a tailgate, it'll hold 45 jumpers, but would take a little longer to 15k than a Twin Otter. Probably in the vacinity of 18 minutes. Big cabin, incredible short field performance, even on grass strips for dz's w/o paved runways. Or is this too much of a specialty AC? It seems ideal to me, except that it's damn expensive. Still, w/ consistent, relatively full loads, w/ lift tickets going for the national average b/t 20-25 per jump, it seems economically viable on paper. What do you think? Some pics... 1. Caribou interior. 2. Caribou tailgate (over 6' wide) 3. Caribou exterior-rear 4. Caribou exterior-front I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #2 December 31, 2005 Quote...a turbine caribou (De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou, retrofitted w/ turbines in place of the old R-2000 radials)? Instead of retrofitting a caribou just go with a buffalo...would be a very cool jump plane I think... Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #3 December 31, 2005 How different is the Caribou from the C-123?"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #4 December 31, 2005 QuoteQuote...a turbine caribou (De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou, retrofitted w/ turbines in place of the old R-2000 radials)? Instead of retrofitting a caribou just go with a buffalo...would be a very cool jump plane I think... Although there are definate advantages to the Buffalo, i.e. faster, larger inside, etc., it's turbines aren't very reliable and more importantly, there are NONE that are certified in the US. Getting them certified is a multi-million dollar process w/ no guarantees. Just ask diver-driver. He's looked that beast head on. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #5 December 31, 2005 QuoteHow different is the Caribou from the C-123? I don't know differences in dimensions, but the thing that is keeping me away from considering a C-123 Provider is that they have the old radial engines, and keeping them up just seems like such an excercise in futility. Plus, I think there is a much larger spares population out there for Caribous than Providers, which is a consideration when you're talking about 30-40 year old airframes, even w/ major overhauls. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
70sdiver 0 #6 December 31, 2005 tailgated one in the military it would be an awesome jump ship Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #7 December 31, 2005 Quotetailgated one in the military it would be an awesome jump ship how slow was it to altitude w/ those big radials? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #8 December 31, 2005 Need A pilot? I assume your one, but if you need a Backup. I will fly any DeHavy Ship. My favorite. will move Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #9 December 31, 2005 QuoteNeed A pilot? I assume your one, but if you need a Backup. I will fly any DeHavy Ship. My favorite. will move hmm... will keep you in mind... [evil grin] PM incoming I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #10 December 31, 2005 Speciality only. For 4 way teams unless its a World Cup Tailgate year they will never show for it. And mins on a plane this size would be upwards of 25-30 to fly and break even. Its going to have to be an extremely large DZ to find it more profitiable to run a plane of that size and have 2 break even loads vs 2 full profiting Otter loads. Generally the only places that are coming to mind that can handle a CASA or multiple planes at the same time for load capacity are the only size of DZ that could fly this one. We went from a CASA to an Otter and more then doubled the numbers of loads that flew on a given day. Not to mention that about the only place that you could ever hope to do back to backs is WFFC and then they were flying the Casa's with 25 since thats all that were ready in reasonable times in 2004. With 4 way teams out of the picture you lose a lot of the potential jumping population. Once you start to put in all the little groups of freefliers and 2-3 ways you are looking at probally 10-15 exiting groups. Thats a very long jump run with probally the last 3-5 groups landing off. A few of those and you'll see the numbers of jumpers dwindle. So now consider the cost and time of multiple jump runs. Plus with the dual pilots needed since its over the weight limit your piloting and insurance costs are going to be way higher so unless you know something no one else does about financing a plane... you'll probally have to pass those costs on in tickets. As a side note, a lot of the CASA's are leased to the military since thats far more profitable then jumpers are.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #11 December 31, 2005 thanks for the informative reply. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #12 December 31, 2005 Quotehow slow was it to altitude w/ those big radials? From the few jumps I've had out of one, 25 mins from what I remember and LOUD as fuck..... The C123 we used to jump out at Eloy years ago was also LOUD. On take off it would use the jet assist. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #13 December 31, 2005 I have several jumps out of a US Army National Guard Caribou, with the old radials, and a RCAF Buffalo. The Caribou with the old radials was incredibly loud - one of the loudest I have ever jumped. I agree with Phree's assessment of ownership as a jumpship - big is great but you have to have the flow of jumpers at the DZ to fill it. On the other hand, if your DZ is near any military installations and the aviation operation and aircraft can pass FAR Part 135 certification, you can make money doing military contracts. Your Caribou would have to have an anchorline cable, jumplights, and a static line retrieval system. If you get serious, I can put you in contact with a couple of larger military contract operations. Good luck.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #14 December 31, 2005 thanks John. your post is very helpful. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #15 December 31, 2005 QuoteFrom the few jumps I've had out of one, 25 mins from what I remember and LOUD as fuck.... Yup, LOUD is what I remember from the couple weekends we got to jump one in Paso. Earplugs were a hot commodity! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,974 #16 December 31, 2005 > How different is the Caribou from the C-123? The C-123 is considerably larger; I've seen 70 jumpers put in one. Typically they have two radials. The BK variant has two radials and two turbojets (not turbofans) - that's the one they flew at Eloy for a while. >how slow was it to altitude w/ those big radials? The C-123BK was moderately fast; about the speed of a typical otter (not a super otter) IIRC. It was also the loudest aircraft I have ever been on. You could scream at someone from a foot away and they wouldn't be able to hear you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #17 December 31, 2005 I last jumped a C-4 at the Herd Boogie in 89. I'd love to jump a turbine 'Bo. I'd even travel to do it. I think, however, that such a plane would do better on the boogie circuit than at a single DZ.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #18 December 31, 2005 thanks tink, and everyone else. if you can think of any other considerations, let me know. i appreciate everyone's input. happy new year! --michael I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 638 #19 December 31, 2005 I have a handful of jumps from Cariboos and a half-dozen from Buffalos. Those wide tail gates are fun to jump from and radial engines add a romantic, nostalgic note to Cariboo flights. Unfortunately, it is tough for either to keep busy enough to turn a profit at any but the biggest and busiest of DZs. You should seriously consider a business model that includes army contracts, or flying odd-sized cargo to oil rigs, or even sub-contracting with a courier companies to fly bulky loads short distances. When considering cargo contracts, make damn sure the de-icing boots are in good shape and that the airframe is approved for flight into known icing. ... and they had better fly better than Caravans in icing conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 638 #20 January 1, 2006 It's all about matching airlift capacity to the market. Hint: try writing your business proposal around a Quest Koidak. This new single turboprop airplane only carries about ten people, so it is the perfect size for DZs that are working their fleet (2 or 3) of single-engined Cessnas overtime, but only need a twin on the (single) busiest day of the year. While the Kodiak may resemble a Cessna Caravan, more detailed examination reveals a more powerful engine pulling a smaller airframe: a recipe for alleviating the Caravan's greatest weak point: it's boring rate of climb. www.questaircraft.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #21 January 1, 2006 http://www.questaircraft.com/specifications.htm didn't have a price or availability listed,_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #22 January 1, 2006 Quotedidn't have a price or availability listed The Quest Aircraft web Press Center, from the October 11, 2005 release: "The KODIAK ... is on track for certification in early 2006, with customer deliveries immediately following. Base price for the KODIAK is $1,111,000." By comparison, controller.com lists a new 2005 Caravan for $1.6M, and a 1987 model for $765K. Did you scope out the landing strips they showed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #23 January 1, 2006 Did you scope out the landing strips they showed? -------------------------------------------- No, but I could not believe the short take off and load capacity. I think this might be the BOMB for jumping. Unfortunately it will be 15 years before there is one old enough on the market I could afford._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sedwick 0 #24 June 24, 2011 Jumptown (orange, ma) is bringing in a retro fitted turbo prop caribou for their 4'th of july boogie this year ... any chance this is your venture come to life? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #25 June 24, 2011 Rampart (owners of the CASA'a and Otter's) I believe are the owners of that Caribou. I jumped it earlier this year and one of the pilots mentioned they were trying to rack up hours for some military contracts they were wanting to get in on with it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
