More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[JerryBaumchen 1,348]

42 minutes ago, kallend said:

Texas gun-nut kills 5 neighbors for complaining about noise from his shooting practice with his AR-15

Hi John,

And, one was an 8-yr old kid.

Complete insanity.

Jerry Baumchen

[timski 80]

36 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

And, one was an 8-yr old kid.

Complete insanity.

Jerry Baumchen

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

[wmw999 2,395]

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,704]

2 hours ago, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

Your argument is not just ridiculous but it also lacks an even passing attempt at taking a larger view. The bottom line here is that we now, thanks to folks like you and Brent and the NRA, live in a country where armed speech trump's free speech. Now, when you voice an opinion some open carry moron might kill you and whomever might be nearby over feeling that his second amendment rights were being infringed. This shit is on you guys even though you'll never see it.

[Phil1111 1,146]

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

Nailed it. Blaming the victims for what in Texas would be normal, expected and neighborly isn't the answer. Although more well to do White people would likely do the 911.

Just more crazy people with guns. Who in any other country would never get near one.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Phil1111

[tonyhays 86]

17 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Just more crazy people with guns

So much for "An armed society is a polite society"

[kallend 1,959]

8 hours ago, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

More excuses - blame the victim.

 

YOU are a symptom of the problem.

[Phil1111 1,146]

10 hours ago, tonyhays said:

So much for "An armed society is a polite society"

An armed society without the utmost respect for everyone else. Is one that slides into anarchy. Its why preppers have the emphasis on guns and ammo.Their belief and a dark human instinct. That the rule of the jungle is but a gun away. At least as far as that gun can shoot. As long as the ammunition lasts.

[JoeWeber 2,704]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

More excuses - blame the victim.

 

YOU are a symptom of the problem.

You’re probably right that he is a symptom, too, but I think it’s fairer to state that folks who think like him are the problem. They vote, buy stupid and unneeded firearms providing support and succor to a predatory industry, give money to the pandering demagogues who dutifully promise only more guns and easier access for all who so desire, and sit on their couches watching Fox type news convinced that only thoughts and prayers or more guns are viable reactions. To my mind that adds up to them being the actual problem.

[jakee 1,462]

14 hours ago, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

WTF?

Somehow I’d imagine if he’d called 911 and the psycho had later come round and shot him in revenge you’d be saying the same thing the other way around. 
 

“In NO way defending his actions but what happened to just talking to your neighbours instead of escalating a single noise complaint to the cops and aggravating everyone?

See how easily that was avoided?”

[timski 80]

23 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Your argument is not just ridiculous but it also lacks an even passing attempt at taking a larger view. The bottom line here is that we now, thanks to folks like you and Brent and the NRA, live in a country where armed speech trump's free speech. Now, when you voice an opinion some open carry moron might kill you and whomever might be nearby over feeling that his second amendment rights were being infringed. This shit is on you guys even though you'll never see it.

Keep reaching for straws... I like how all of a sudden I'm lumped in with Brent now!!! lol. 

[timski 80]

11 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You’re probably right that he is a symptom, too, but I think it’s fairer to state that folks who think like him are the problem. They vote, buy stupid and unneeded firearms providing support and succor to a predatory industry, give money to the pandering demagogues who dutifully promise only more guns and easier access for all who so desire, and sit on their couches watching Fox type news convinced that only thoughts and prayers or more guns are viable reactions. To my mind that adds up to them being the actual problem.

I get that you only know me from what I type here. You couldn't be further from who I truly am... Not that I'm here to make friends or sell myself. I'm here because I'm a skydiver, with time to burn and opinions...

[wmw999 2,395]

I’d be interested in your answer to what Jakee or I said in response to your comment

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,940]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:29 PM, timski said:

Certainly in NO way defending such an action, but when you have a complaint about someone shooting a firearm, YOU CALL 911,  you don't go knocking on his door... Stupid is as stupid does  ~Gump

See how easily that was avoided. Come on people. If you're going to run into the sound of gun fire, at least get paid to do so.   

"Certainly in NQ way defending such an action, but when you don't want to be raped, you DON'T WEAR that kind of clothing.  Stupid is as stupid does.  See how easily that was avoided?  Come on, people, if you're going to advertise that you want to have sex, at least get paid for it."

Not much difference.

[JoeWeber 2,704]

2 hours ago, timski said:

I get that you only know me from what I type here. You couldn't be further from who I truly am... Not that I'm here to make friends or sell myself. I'm here because I'm a skydiver, with time to burn and opinions...

Fair enough, I apologize.

[BIGUN 1,259]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:54 AM, gowlerk said:

random events like school shootings is that they are so random.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability#:~:text=In probability theory%2C the law,distinct events%2C hence the name.

[normiss 774]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:47 PM, wmw999 said:

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

It also appears that Texas cops are deathly afraid of confronting AR type weapons.

 

[DougH 270]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:17 AM, BIGUN said:

How many times are we going to let this record skip before we change the tune. That's the fucking point. A complete Gun Owner's Responsibility Bill. Ownership tracking from cradle to grave, weapon education and recurrency, proper storage, 10 years for use of a gun in the commission of a crime (bet domestic violence with a gun would go way down), etc. etc. we can discuss it more with the next fucking school shooting, cause ya know  . . . we'd rather spend more time typing on SC than spending a few minutes writing in the text box to our congressional and senatorial leadership.  

1000x, but I would go further.

As a gunowner I have said multiple times in one way or another that I think my rights should be tempered with evaluations and continued monitoring.

I live in MA where there are a bunch of  gun laws that restrict ownership, but none of them directly tackle the problem. People owning guns that are unfit to own them. There is an assault weapons ban, large capacity laws. But none of the laws truly evaluate my fitness to own a firearm. I could go buy an assault weapon that was manufactured before the enactment date of the original federal assault weapon ban, and I could buy a storage locker full of "pre-ban" magazines. Totally legal. The only hinderance is a much higher cost because of supply and demand, there are only so many pre-ban guns and magazines to buy.

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

I like my firearms, but I also know the risk they pose. I think it would be complete reasonable to have yearly evaluations of my gun safety knowledge, practical evaluations of my handling of them, a check on my gun storage, and a mental health evaluation that includes interviews of acquaintances for character evaluation.

Edited May 1, 2023 by DougH

[Phil1111 1,146]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:47 PM, wmw999 said:

It’s the kind of neighborhood where the police don’t go “just” for a report of gunfire. Also, the murdered family was from Honduras; not all may have been in the US legally. The shooter also spoke Spanish; they may have decided to try to deal with it neighbor to neighbor. Is that really so unreasonable? It’s easy to say stupid is as stupid does in hindsight, though, isn’t it?

Wendy P. 

NBC reporters from the scene of the crime. Reported that every weekend there was recreational shooting on other properties on that street. The homeowner where the victims were shot. Reported that five calls to police were made over 20 minutes before the homicides started. The good news: There were twelve people in the home at the time so it could have been worse.

Armed neighbors who regularly practice didn't make it any safer.Calling police didn't make it any safer.

[JoeWeber 2,704]

18 minutes ago, DougH said:

1000x, but I would go further.

As a gunowner I have said multiple times in one way or another that I think my rights should be tempered with evaluations and continued monitoring.

I live in MA where there are a bunch of  gun laws that restrict ownership, but none of them directly tackle the problem. People owning guns that are unfit to own them. There is an assault weapons ban, large capacity laws. But none of the laws truly evaluate my fitness to own a firearm. I could go buy an assault weapon that was manufactured before the enactment date of the original federal assault weapon ban, and I could buy a storage locker full of "pre-ban" magazines. Totally legal. The only hinderance is a much higher cost because of supply and demand, there are only so many pre-ban guns and magazines to buy.

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

I like my firearms, but I also know the risk they pose. I think it would be complete reasonable to have yearly evaluations of my gun safety knowledge, practical evaluations of my handling of them, a check on my gun storage, and a mental health evaluation that includes interviews of acquaintances for character evaluation.

I’m in agreement with all of your proposals even knowing the outcome of the interviews with my acquaintances. No matter, I guess, there aren’t any gophers or wood peckers at sea so what the hell.
 

[BIGUN 1,259]

29 minutes ago, DougH said:

There was no true evaluation of my mental health, and no real check that I am not a reckless moron aside from attending a brief NRA firearms safety class. I could be bat shit crazy, with huge anger issues from day 1, and if I managed to avoid getting entangled with the legal or mental health system it would completely fly under the radar because I could mask long enough for my 10 minute conversation with the officer assigned to process permits at the local police station.

Or maybe I was previously fit to own firearms, but recently lost my job, got divorced, and have been having getting increasingly isolated. Maybe I have start to become unhinged after feeding myself a steady stream of extremist videos on YouTube. There is no system to catch that either, short of someone spotting outward signs and reporting me to law enforcement.

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

[normiss 774]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

I had a couple of coworkers years ago claim that I had anger issues.

Because I liked to rev my Harley in the parking garage. Angry??? Hell I did it for the grins it gave me, it sounded AWESOME in the parking garage. My boss (also a biker) laughed when he heard it. Then he made a point of texting me on the days I left early. It was impossible to sneak out early on a Harley parked in the echo chamber that the garage created.

It made me wonder how the hell I ever received clearance for a TS/SCI, given they interviewed teachers, neighbors, friends, coworkers. I was pretty wild on motorcycles when I was in High School.

It also made me realize people will talk nonsense untruths about others. 

 

We have a neighbor who happily brags about always answering his door with gun in hand. Even when it was the little girl from next door, who simply wanted the Amazon package delivered to the wrong address. I honestly cannot imagine being that paranoid and scared. This is a former Army, 100% disability from cutting away his canopy after landing in the tall pine trees, blowing out both legs, knees, and ankles. We chuckled a little when he told us that story. Poor thing.

[DougH 270]

58 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks for stepping in Doug. Quite frankly, I/we can identify the problem, but I personally don't feel qualified to address it for several reasons, 1) Having neighbors/acquaintances/family be interviewed about one's mental health can range from the, "He's a loon" (that is all noise and no action) to the, "He was such a nice kid," and 2) At what point are "we" becoming the old Soviet Union where neighbors rat out neighbors. I'm kind of resistant to having a "shoot first, ask questions later" type investigating people for mental health and feel like there's a better direction to take - although I don't really have an answer.    

I understand the concerns you raise, especially #2. I also get what Normiss is saying. 

In my fantasy world we should be able to build due process into the system, and I am not picturing a system of informing, rather I am thinking of a spectrum of evaluation where multiple data points are weighed against each other. 

For example, I think it would be fine to have people pick their own character references. The type of people you can or can't get to vouch for you is a data point itself. A change in the people you pick would also be a data point.

Why did you no longer use your parent and a close friend to be a reference. Is it because they were on vacation, or is it because the people that know you closely have had concerns about changes in your behavior.

Cap it with a robust system for timely appeal, that would protect against the fun hating coworkers that Normiss had.

Unfortunately this is ultimately nothing but a thought experiment about a dreadful problem because we don't have the political will to solve big complex problems in the country. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by DougH

[wmw999 2,395]

This is a really great conversation. I wish it had a chance of going somewhere. I’ve written my congressman; got my “I got your email it’s important to be involved” reply. But this is all part of the discussion.

Wendy P. 

[BIGUN 1,259]

21 minutes ago, DougH said:

Unfortunately this is ultimately nothing but a thought experiment about a dreadful problem because we don't have the political will to solve big complex problems in the country.

That is no shit. We can't get the congress critters to sit down with each other and talk about real-world shit. These days they only know how to slam each other on social media. Fuck what's best for the country.