Paracommander advice

[manchuso 3]

I have this PC Mk1 in great shape that I´m jumping every now and them, packed into a mini/superpro H/C and want to change it into a piggyback. Thing is we´ve never had pc´s in piggybacks here in Uruguay and I know there´s this huge list of thing I have to do to before it´s ready to jump. Among them I can list the following:
SIZE; I´m looking for a container for a 282 foil...will it be big enough?
BAG!!! what modifications do I have to make to a regular d bag to make it compatible with the pc?
Pilot chute...HD or spring loaded?
Have I missed anything? All advice is welcome

Safe landings

[RiggerLee 61]

Thinking back to the size of a pod I can't help but think that you may find that it is still tight even in that container. You'd be better off with a RW PC. I don't know the shape of the bag your putting it in. You may find that it wants to pack up long. Most bags are short and wide. The old pods were long and let you make fewer folds. You might almost be better off russion rigging it and s folding it into the bag sidewase to take advantage of the width of the bag. Can you just s-fold the sleave in the container side to side? Most PC's were packed in sleaves and even with the slumping issues seamed to stage better out of the sleaves then out of pods or bags.
I don't see why you would want to go with a ripcord unless you just want to go old school in which case you might just stick with a conventional rig. Try to find or build a large pilot chute. you've got a lot of weight there.
Oh and you'll need a rappid link or something on the inside of the bag for the briadle to pull aganst. You'll have to stow the crown lines on the inside of the bag to keep them neat. The other choice would be to open up the hole in the top of the bag. A soft edge hole or a big #8 grommit. That way you could eather stow the crown lines on the out side of the bag. You could let them unstow during the early stages of the deployment or stow them on a flap like on a sleave that would take the load of the pilot shoot and let the crown unstow as the bag strips.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[stratostar 5]

If you look thru the classifieds for contaners I saw a wonderhog one being sold on here, there is a good chance that your MK-1 will fit inside it in a D-bag or a POD. I have a 77 hog with a MK-1 in a POD turned sideways to fit the tray,( just been to lazy to build a D-bag for it) set up on hand deploy,3-rings. This is a easy way to have a newer old, old school rig.

The attached photos is a 27 ft russian in a 78 wonderhog packed in custom made D-bag, 3-ringed and HD, round reserve.

I alao have an original SST racer with a MK-1 in it, it is packed in a regular style D-bag with crowns stowed on topside thru big number 8, I also have bags and POD's that are soft holed. I have been meaning to take the D-bag off this rig and make a pattern for making a few bags of differnt sizes for my personal collection of rigs.

Any right sized D-bag will work, you will need to work on your packing skills for a D-bag. POD's are easy and sleeves are easy and all work well.

Why you moving away from the retro rigging?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Krip 2]

Hi SS

Was wondering the same thing with a real retro Piggy back. Just change containers.

One Jump Wonder

[manchuso 3]

Thank you and riggerlee for the advice.

Nice canopy stratostar! I´d love to try a russian pc; I´ve jumped paps and zondas (argentine) and now I´m trying to locate a sierra that used to be around.

I´m moving away from retro because it´s a VERY tight 6 points harness and it takes me a long time to adjust -every time I jump- and I´m a lightweight 5´7"
The sleeve I have is original, brand new and it would be a pity to discard it except for pack volume considerations; the sideways packing would be ideal as long as everything fits...if not I´ll ask you both for more detailed instructions for the d bag or pod

Do you know how big is the PC? The parafoil 282 packs at 830 cu.in. and it´s still the biggest sport canopy we´ve had here in Uruguay. The other option I have is to look for a military rig; they have huge canopies so their rigs should do nicely. And they use ripcords...which brings me to the matter of spring loaded vs hd; naturally with a ripcord I´d use the same pilotchute I have now but should I find a sport rig then I have to use a hand deploy 36inches or bigger?

Thanks once more for the advice

Safe landings, manchuso

[riggerrob 638]

Definitely go with a short sleeve or POD ... that will allow you to stow crown lines (in rubber bands) on the outside/top of your deployment device (short sleeve or POD).
Stowing your lines outside/top of your POD will prevent a whole raft of sleeve slump problems.

As for size of container ... the first generation (circa 1982) of student piggybacks - in Canada - were sized for Para-Commanders or RW Para-Commanders. They were mostly copies of Wonderhogs with hand-deploy pilot chutes mounted on belly bands, two-pin reserves containers, FXC, etc.

[stratostar 5]

Here is what you need to buy and set up. This is cheap and he has a reserve too. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=49324;d=1 if you want to go modern while still being old school. I have one just like this with a Mk-1 in it and also the one in the photo I attached in in a hog and I just got a wonderhog with a sierra in it too.

I use a 28 inch PC on my hog with the main in a POD.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[manchuso 3]

Thank you riggerrob and stratostar

The wonderhog would be great but it might take me some time to travel to the states and shipping to uruguay is definitely not worth it. I´ll have to work it out "en casa"

Short sleeves and pods...I know d bags and regular sleeves but can´t grasp the short sleeve and as far as I can tell the pod is referred to in Dan Poynter´s 1st volume but I haven´t seen one -ever- could you explainig to me the mechanics of each?

The stowing of the crown lines outside I can understand; a friend of mine had this 252 foil with extra long reefing lines and this were stowed outside the bag. I guess I can copy that.

Thanks once more for the help

Safe landings, manchuso

[airtwardo 7]

The stowing of the crown lines outside I can understand; a friend of mine had this 252 foil with extra long reefing lines and this were stowed outside the bag. I guess I can copy that.

Quote

That's what I did...mine was a bag from an old 252 heavyweight. Remove the grommet and fashion a 'slot' 4-5 inches across where the grommet 'was', Velcro it shut around the crown lines and stow them back & fourth in the bands for the 252's reefing line.

The bag turns inside out on deployment, but worked every time.

Be careful how you 'dress' the stabilizers, need to be more vigilant than with a sleeve, it'll open but they show line burn if not 'perfect' when going into the already full D-bag.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[riggerrob 638]

A full-length sleeve would extend from the crown lines, all the way down to the bottom of the stabilizers, whereas a short sleeve would only be the length of the fabric portion.
Short sleeves usually have a large hole in the top that allows the crown lines to slip out the top. By stowing the crown lines - in rubber bands - outside, on top of the short sleeve, you keep them neat, preventing many different types of entanglements.
Even more important, by tensioning the crown lines - early in the deployment sequence - you prevent several types of sleeve-slump malfunctions.

The large (#8) grommet - in the top of a POD (Parachute Opening Device) - serves the same function. While some people believe that the #8 grommet provides crown line reefing, I doubt it. Sort of like trying to catch the horse's tail after he has left the barn!

[pchapman 279]

I'm posting an example of one relatively simple way to get a ParaCommander into use. Other suggestions from more experienced PC riggers in this thread may be more complex but also better technically!

I wasn't able to get a Paracommander, without a sleeve, into a rig that was a tight fit for a modern 282 Parafoil. Older 'Foils would be bulkier.

I therefore built a very simple new main container that velcroes overtop of the existing main container. Basically one big piece of Cordura, plus grommets, stiffeners, velcro, BOC, etc. Side and bottom flaps are new; the original top flap is used.

Having discarded the sleeve, I found a large enough d-bag, and simply added elastics to stow the crown lines, on the inside top of the bag. The lines aren't as out of the way as with external stowage, but at least they are kept neat.

The canopy is folded into the bag side to side.

The pilot chute is just an old 36" one that was lying about.

[manchuso 3]

Thank you and all others for the advice; you´ve all been most helpful.

I guess I will do the D-bag thing. As I mentioned before there have never been any pods or short sleeves in Uruguay so even though I now understand the logic behind them, I can relate to the D-bag better.

What kind of dressing should I use for the stabilizers; and with a split bag, why should they be going (last?) into the full D-bag?

safe landings, manchuso

[ahdz 0]

I've been using a very short sleeve/bag - apparently known as a "slag" back in the day - and packing my Mark 1 PC into that. I use a nice big and strong 36 inch hand deploy pilot chute.

I've attached a picture of the slag. I have to make a bunch more this winter, maybe I could make one extra for you?

It packs into a Talon Classic rig sized for a Foil 282 but I have to use a long closing loop - about 6 inches long. As the canopy is all enclosed by the deployment slag and I'm only doing 8-12 second delays I don't have a problem using this long loop configuration, and would rather jump this with its square reserve than the original front and back system with R3 releases, round reserve and FXC 8000 AAD.

I'm currently putting together a set of packing instructions for this system for my own purposes which I'd gladly share with anyone else if they PM me.

Before the introduction of refined sugar the pancreas gland was not called upon to secrete as much insulin in an entire lifetime as it is called upon to secrete in nearly every day of post-infant life

[ahdz 0]

Looking at the pic you supplied of your PC on the ground it doesn't seem to be a Mark 1. Based on the slot configurations at the back, it appears to be a Russian 23 or 27 ft PC, as illustrated in the ParaCommander handbook by Gary Lewis

{This is based on my limited knowledge of the differences so I stand by to be corrected and learn more about PC types from those who know better}

Before the introduction of refined sugar the pancreas gland was not called upon to secrete as much insulin in an entire lifetime as it is called upon to secrete in nearly every day of post-infant life

[stratostar 5]

I attached the photo you saw, and yes it is a 27 foot russian. We also have a matching (colors) 23 ft russian.

I love the color pattern of the PC in your Av. never seen one like that before. I would be interested in a "slag" bag if your making extras or even better a pattern, that looks a lot like a sleeve type thing I saw Ted Strong messing around with once for squares. Kind of a ugly POD. (your is a little longer then a regular POD)

For the reocrd anyone in North America with old gear who would like to see it have a good home in a "flying circus museum" (that would be a museum where the stuff is fixed up and jumped regular and a place where those who would like to make a jump with retro rigs can do just that) you can PM me or Beatnik.

We are saving the history of days gone by and between the two of us we have 45 to 50 complete rigs ready to jump and we have other parts in need of other parts to complete the rigs, so we are always interested in talking to those who have old gear and would like to part with it.

Oh and no it's not worth thousands so do fool yourself....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ahdz 0]

I'm talking about the picture attached by the original poster too - that looks like a Russian model.

I too am collecting old stuff to prevent the past being forgotten over here in the UK. A mere 15 rigs so far. Anyone about to throw something away, throw it at me or Stratostar first please - once gone this stuff is irreplaceable

Before the introduction of refined sugar the pancreas gland was not called upon to secrete as much insulin in an entire lifetime as it is called upon to secrete in nearly every day of post-infant life

[Beatnik 2]

Glad to see other people are into preserving the past. The sport has a rich history and there is not enough of us "historians" around.

15 rigs is not that mere. That is a great start to preserving the past. Post some pics of you collection when you get a chance. But I imagine that with 15 rigs you are somewhat in the same situation as me and always have some sort of project on the go.

[wmw999 2,411]

I love your avatar canopy; I had a white rainbow Starlite, but would have traded it for a black one in a heartbeat.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ahdz 0]

Here's both

Before the introduction of refined sugar the pancreas gland was not called upon to secrete as much insulin in an entire lifetime as it is called upon to secrete in nearly every day of post-infant life

[stratostar 5]

Sweet you got both. I was so busy looking at the colors I didn't notice the drive slots cuts. Anyone got a "pizza puke" MK-1 or jumbo, I sure would like to find one.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Krip 2]

"pizza puke"

Barf me out with a spoon

A friends wife bought him one for his B-day. First time he jumped it everyone turned their backs before he landed.

Butt ugly looking canopy.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Butt ugly looking canopy

Yea, but it is a classic now.....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[manchuso 3]

Hi ahdz,

Thank you for the photos of your "slag" they are clarifying. I´ll be trying with the sleeve but I might be tempted to ask you for one. It looks nice as well!

The picture I posted is of paracommander mk1 mfd in 1983. Would you believe there are a few more mk1´s and competition pc´s -now for sale- in pretty much the same condition as mine?

Safe landings